Interviewer: Clara Lee
“When I first started this project, I wanted to use a group setting to talk about community and community building, or a lack thereof, for Asian identifying people at UChicago. I had hoped to use the events of the 2020 Care not Cops protest at Provost Ka Yee C. Lee’s home to root this discussion. I recruited interviewees from the UChicago Facebook page Poll Party by posting a poll asking for students who were Asian identifying and/or of Asian descent, ending up with a planned group of seven people. Unfortunately, almost all my interviewees dropped out last-minute. By the time the scheduled interview time came, only two people showed up.
Both of my interviewees, Sanjay and Rose, had expressed prior to the start of recording that they didn’t know much about the Care not Cops protest, so I decided to pivot away from that event and do individual oral histories instead. I still wanted to focus on community and spaces for Asian people at UChicago, but since I was doing individual interviews, I wanted to take the opportunity to draw out a deeper discussion of Asian communities at home and at UChicago. Because of these last-minute changes, I had to quickly adapt the questions I had put forth in my project proposal.
One of the difficulties with building a broadly pan-Asian community at UChicago is the tension of what being ‘Asian’ means. Both Sanjay and Rose expressed a sense of disconnect with the term ‘Asian’ or ‘Asian American’ and noted a tendency towards grouping along ethnic or national lines. Sanjay and Rose’s problems with the term ‘Asian’ and ‘Asian American’ echoed many of the themes and questions we brought up in class about the Week 10 Menon reading and identity politics.
For Sanjay, it seemed like his discomfort came from the disproportionately large presence that East Asians have within the term ‘Asian’ or ‘Asian American’, and the subsequent marginalization of, and disconnect with, South Asians. He wasn’t sure whether he should respond ‘yes’ to my poll asking for Asian subjects, because he didn’t know if, as an Indian, he counted as Asian. For him, Asian usually means everything “east of India”. Even in his hometown, he noted that there were distinct Indian and Asian communities, and that the two never really interacted with one another. This was because of nationalist sentiments—India and China had fought a war in the 1970s when his parents’ generation were growing up, so they had bad feelings towards China and therefore towards Chinese people.
Similarly, Rose also tended to emphasize that she was Korean rather than Asian or Asian American. While she still considered herself Asian to some degree, that category was secondary to her identity as Korean. She said that she is very nationalistic towards Korea, and brought up tensions between Korea and other Asian countries, particularly China and Japan, as a reason for not closely identifying as Asian. In Rose’s mind, these kinds of tensions are also important for other (international) Asian students and are the reason why people who belong to the same ethnic group tend to stick together on campus.
Rose and Sanjay’s experiences made the potential pitfalls of identity politics that Menon discussed more concrete for me. I can see more clearly the difficulties in forming broad coalitions based on identity politics because these kinds of international political tensions are translated into the personal. And, as the political becomes personal, people group themselves with other people who have similar identities. The Asian monolith shatters.
This made me wonder if there can, or should, be a community built to encompass different Asian communities without bringing politics into the equation. Is it still worthwhile to build a pan-Asian coalition if there are no direct political goals to achieve? Menon seems to think such a project will fail. Pan-Asian coalitions can only avoid those pitfalls if they come together based on shared specific political interests and goals.
At the same time, Sanjay’s positive experiences with the South Asian Students Association (SASA), which brings together many different South Asian groups, pushes back against Menon. His experience suggests that it could be useful and affirming to meet in a space for Asians, even without using a political agenda as glue. Granted, I don’t know much about the politics of South Asia, which is perhaps a more cohesive group than the broad pan-Asian group could ever hope to be. Even so, I imagine it can’t be so homogenous as to entirely lack tensions and fragmentations.
My interviews with Sanjay and Rose also made me think about the differences between Asia and Asian America, and the complicated relationship that they, and I, have with America. All three of us have lived in the U.S. for most of our lives and have been raised by immigrant parents. Sanjay and I identify more as American, while Rose identifies as more Korean. In that sense, it feels like the hybrid nature of Asian America doesn’t really exist—we all pick one side or the other. Our experiences, even as members of the same ethnic group, are so vastly different that combining us under one umbrella can seem laughable.
At the same time, as Asians living in America, all three of us face pushback from the communities we most closely identify with. As Sanjay said, “you can act as white as you want, you’re not going to be white in the eyes of people who just look at you.” Strikingly, this is true in reverse as well. Rose looks and acts Korean, but isn’t necessarily accepted as Korean by people who live in Korea because she lives in the U.S. So, in this sense—in the minds of others—there is an Asian America, because none of us fully belong to either ‘world’. Perhaps, as we’ve been discussing in class, there is power in that, to disrupt the homogeneity and power structures of the societies we live in. But I (and I think my subjects would also agree) still don’t really know what to do with that, or how to do that. It’s a big burden.”
Rose
Clara Lee: So first please tell me your name, your, uh, ethnicity and where you're from.
Rose: So my name is Rose. Um, I'm a fourth year. I am Korean and I am from, well, I was born in Korea. But, um, I live in the U S
Clara Lee: Do you have any siblings?
Rose: Yes, I have one sister younger sister.
Clara Lee: Please tell me a little bit more about the rest of your family. Um, your parents, where are they from-- if they're not from the us? What do they do?
Rose: So my mom and dad are from Korea. Um, cause all of us immigrated from Korea when I was six years old. And um, my dad is an architect. We initially came over because of his job. And my mom is, my mom went to school in the U S and is now a teacher.
Clara Lee: What does your mom teach?
Rose: She teaches middle schooler math currently.
Clara Lee: I'm kind of curious about, uh, where you currently live and, uh, yeah. Just, just tell me about where you, where you call home right now.
Rose: Like where my family lives?
Clara Lee: Yes.
Rose: Ok. So my, um, like, I guess like my family and I live in Minnesota.
Clara Lee: Okay. Uh, what's the. What's the town like, what's the demographic makeup? Is there, is it mostly white? Is there a big Asian or a big Korean community?
Rose: Oh, we live in a very white suburban kind of like affluent neighborhood with very little diversity. It got better as the years progressed, but when we first moved, there was almost no. Like there are, there were Korean and like people in Minnesota but in the community, in the community that we lived in directly there weren't like barely any diversity whatsoever.
Clara Lee: Okay. So how did you, how did that kind of like change for you when you came to UChicago? Like, did you feel like there are more, um, like there's a bigger sense of like community with other like Asian people slash Korean people? What was your experience like there?
Rose: I would say like, just in general, everything, even besides this demographic wise, was different coming to U Chicago, even just like people's personalities, people's interests, peoples, um, just like, even like their identities and like political spectrum and things like that. Like, or even just like family affluency like everything was different.
Clara Lee: Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. I'm curious, like if you could talk a little bit more about your experience as like, uh, a member of a minority within this largely white suburban neighborhood. If there are like any moments where you felt, uh, maybe a sense of difference, or if you didn't feel like there was a difference between you and the other kids, other white kids.
Rose: I think I felt most of the differences in like elementary school, because like, that was when I first moved here. Um, like I definitely felt like. Not like, not part of any group at that time. Well, I think because I experienced that at the time. Like I say, I think, cause I'm not even sure, but myself, I feel like it's something I did subconsciously, but I feel like, like when I like during my, because of my elementary school years, like I realized at least like I subconsciously taught myself to like, just overlook those kinds of um, like feeling of like isolation or like feeling, not part of the group that I might feel. Because like, I didn't really feel it much in middle school and high school, but in like hindsight, it's not like pe- like things changed or like there was more diversity or things like that. It was just that, like, I think just like my like kind of perspective changed.
I just learned to like, kind of overlook it and like yeah...I think it's interesting, especially cuz like I was like. Like, I think since then, like starting in like middle school and high school, like a lot of my friends hated high school years especially like, even though like they're also white. But like for me, I enjoyed those cause like, I feel like, like, those are the times where I really didn't care. About like really what people at least thought of me, like at least racially. But there was also the fact that like, it might've also been that I wasn't able to pick-- maybe I wasn't able to pick up on microaggression, but none of nobody said anything to me, like directly, like that would have been like, overtly like racist, cause like just personality wise, I was really kind of confident and like direct. So like if they said anything to me, like obviously I wouldn't be just standing by. Just speaking, honestly, compared to elementary in school, like when, like I really was just like an outsider. Like in middle school and in high school, like my friends kind of called me the social butterfly. Like even if I wasn't like close friends with everyone, like everyone would kind of know me and like be able to like joke around with me and things like that. So like, I feel like that might've added onto the reason why, like, no one was overtly like racist to me.
Clara Lee: Why do you think there was that, that feeling of isolation when you moved in or when you started elementary school?
Rose: Oh, it's cause like I couldn't speak English at all at the time when I first joined the school. I also had to do ESL the first three grades, and then I joined the, um, like a program for high IQ students, where they separated us from like rest of the grade. And like we would have to follow like different programs and like, not even be able to go on the same field trips as other kids, so there would also be that. But there's also the fact that everyone was white and like, like I had a lot of interest in like Korean media, like K drama or K-pop. But like at the time, like people didn't even know that Korea existed. So like obviously when other people are like interested in like Taylor Swift and things like that, I wouldn't really care much about it either. So like, I wouldn't have much to talk about either. And then there's also the fact that I lived in, um, like the suburban neighborhood that I lived in was basically like the kind of like neighborhoods you see on like, in like movies where like people grow up together. Like they've known each other ever since, like, they were really young and things like that. And like you're either on like sports teams together, like parents know each other, they all go over to each other's houses often and things like that. So like, I personally just didn't really care to-- like I, when I was young, at least like to really hang out with people outside of school.
Clara Lee: Um, yeah. So I guess kind of like going back to, to your experiences at, at U Chicago, um, I'm kind of wondering then, um.. Chicago is also a predominantly white institution, but do you feel like, um, that you have kind of gained a community like with other Asian people? Or is that something that you are even interested in, in looking for? Or is there, are there communities for Asian people on campus?
Rose: I felt like I really haven't. 'cause like when I think of like a community like that, like the type of community that I would like, that is in my head, is like, like those groups of like Chinese students, that like speak Chinese to each other. Like a big group, like, rather than just like, like close friends, like a big group of like people who first got together because they're Chinese and things like that. So like, with those kinds of groups, I haven't made one. Um, I mean, I guess I could, I have like attempted at making one, like, by like going to KSO or things like that. But, like, I feel like the thing is with me, I tended to not join RSOs in general not just only KSO, but like just any RSOs. Because obviously when you first start an RSO-- this is also something I felt when I started, just recently started a new RSO-- the badminton club-- cuz obviously when you first joined, when you aren't going to know people and people already there would be closer to each other, but like that made me feel kind of like, oh, like I'm an outsider, so I wouldn't go back. So since I don't go back, I also still wouldn't meet people. So like, I wouldn't know anyone. So like, because of like similar reasons, I also have not made much friends in KSO. I probably should have tried better, but COVID also got in the way, but I have like made close friends.
Clara Lee: Cool. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, I guess then switching, well, I think we'll return to this in a moment, but switching gears a little bit, I'm kind of curious what you think about the Asian American identity and whether you would consider yourself as just Korean, just American, Korean American. Um, and kind of why you prefer one, one of the three, um, or if you prefer none of them.
Rose: I think I kind of see myself as just Korean, but I feel like in actuality I'm Korean American. I'm heavily towards Korean. Because um, I feel like Koreans wouldn't see me as Korean. They'd see me as Korean-American, since cuz like something I realized recently is like a lot of my values is more like American than Korean. Like there's some values, like that's like, like held by like majority of the public in Korea that I would like heavily disagree with and like, be surprised that it's supported by the majority because of growing up in the U.S.. So I know because of those reasons, like it's clear that I'm not just Korean and like nor would Koreans see me as just Korean. Like it's interesting, cause like before, like I thought I was Korean rather than Korean-American, and I think the reason I thought that is because I, like, I live with my sister. And like compared to her she's a lot more like Korean American than I am, which made me feel like, um, like I don't care, like honestly. Um, but like, it just made me think like, oh, I must be more Korean than like Korean American. Cause like, she's definitely like more of what you would think like a Korean-American would be like than I am.
Clara Lee: But I guess, what do you think a Korean American would be like?
Rose: Uh, I think first of all, she really identifies with Korean American more. Like even just, um, the title more than me, cause like, she's really, she's kind of an activist. So she really like tries to stand up for like, like racism. Um, especially towards like Asian American or like, um, like minority groups and things like that. And like, um, she knows more about American culture. Like whether that be, just like pop media or just like, even like having interest in the first place, things like that. Although she's kind of basic. So like she follow a lot of those trends, which made me watch it and be like, wow. Kind of thing. And she definitely adheres a lot, even more to American beliefs than I even, I do. Yeah. Like with some things like both my mom and I would be like, what the heck to her about, but then she'd be like, like it's completely normal in the U S and things like that. Like compare when I see her act like that, I'm like, like, I feel like she's very, like, she's very clearly Asian-American, more than I am.
Clara Lee: Yeah. So I guess then kind of jumping off of the Korean American versus Korean versus American, um, what do you feel about the label Asian American? And do you think that applies to you? Like, would you want to like call yourself Asian American and like be part of that group?
Rose: Honestly? Like, I don't have any qualms or like any, I'm just neutral about the label Asian American to people in general. Like if people feel like they identify with it, good for them. But I feel like me personally, like, like I said, even though I feel like I'm probably am Asian American than just Asian, I feel like I see my, I still see myself as more Asian rather than Asian-American because like, I feel like I wouldn't like identify myself as Asian-American or like, feel like that, like, like feel the same things or like, um, have as similar interests or beliefs as Asian Americans. 'cause like, I feel like even though I have enough American beliefs to like, not be seen as Korean probably completely, or like, as, as like the general, average Korean by Koreans, I still, I feel like I still adhere to a lot of Korean beliefs like things that like the general public would like, like believe rather than the American public. I have more interest in like Korean media anyway, like than like American media or like Korean culture than American culture. And I think that another big thing too is I'm really. Like my family, just in general, including me, I don't know about, like how much my sister would, but, um, have really strong nationalism towards Korea, like pride towards it. So I think like, just like how we view ourselves, we see ourselves as Korean because of that. Yeah.
Clara Lee: I guess I'm also interested in, it sort of felt to me that you were using. Like Korean and Asian as interchangeable. And I mean, obviously like Asia or maybe not obviously, but in my mind, I think, and in a lot of other people's mind, Asia does encompass Korea. Um, I guess I'm wondering if you like, feel like there's any difference between saying you're Asian versus saying you're Korean.
Rose: Oh, I think there definitely is.
Clara Lee: Okay. Like, would you mind like talking about a little bit about the difference?
Rose: So the big difference relies on this. The fact that even if we were to focus on east Asia and Asian, um, there's China and there's Korea and there's Japan. But the thing is, Korea's history with China or Japan, some parts of it are very muddled. Yes. And there's a lot of, I think, historic injustices that Korea has suffered because of Japan and China. And like, even though like it's obviously, and I still love Chinese culture, like Japanese culture. And like, I have a lot of Chinese and Japanese friends, but I think the government, like their governments, like the, the countries, their governments are doing a very poor job of trying to make up for their like historic injustices. And like, um, there's a lot of cases where like, like you can still see like continuing to this day. Like for example, like something that happened recently was like China trying to claim like some historical aspects of Korea, like cultural aspects to be theirs and things like that.
Clara Lee: What cultural aspects, do you remember?
Rose: They tried to say kimchi or like, things like that was theirs, and then, um, they also tried to say like hanbok, which is Korea's cultural, like, um, traditional clothing was also theirs. So like they try to claim it as theirs, even though like, no one's been talking about it like for a long time. And they only say that now that it's kind of popular in the us too, but, um, because of reasons like that, like I think I definitely see myself as Korean. Like it's, it's, it's a specific. Specific thing. Rather than like, I am still, like, I still see myself as like, obviously I'm Asian, but like, rather than saying, like I'm Asian, I would say I'm Korean. Yeah. I feel like it should, I feel like most Asians, like people like feel similarly as I do, like even like, even for Chinese and Japanese people. Cause like, I feel like. Like even the fact that we have RSOs where it's like Korean RSO versus like Chinese RSO and things like that. And like the fact that you see a lot of like, and like, it's not bad of them, like good for them, but like the fact that you see a lot of Chinese students, like, like interacting and being friends and helping other Chinese students, like more often. or like not even just Chinese or like Vietnamese students or like Taiwanese students. Like they just like having like a community with like other Taiwanese or like Vietnamese students, like shows, I think like Asian countries, like have like a sense of nationalism that like makes you then like, feel like part of. Like it's their like if you have like, circles of like how close a person is to you, like there would be definitely be a circle, like based on what country you're from. Not just whether you're Asian or not. Yeah.
Clara Lee: Yeah. I think that makes a lot of sense. And there is actually a, I recently learned this myself, a pan Asian resource group on campus that is very, very inclusive and broad ranging from, um, east Asians, uh, south Asian, Southeast Asian central Asians, um, west Asian slash middle Eastern, um, countries, um, Pacific island Oceania. But yeah, I do think that there's a lot of, kind of ethnic grouping within the community, but I'm kind of wondering, like do you think there's value in forming like, uh, a Pan-Asian group? Like, I'm just wondering like, if this Pan-Asian resource group were more, I guess, active in promoting themselves or like holding events and, um, kind of like posting it all over social media. Like, would that be something that you would like be interested in like going to?
Rose: I mean, I'd go to it cause like it's a resource. And like I'm still Asian, but like I think, I think the thing is, I think it'd be useful, but like, but I think the thing is like, it'd be as useful as like, like any other RSO would be useful to me. For example, just like a business RSO would be like. It'd just be another resource. But like, I feel like, and this is my personal opinion, but I feel like most Asian students would prefer or like prioritize their country RSO first over the pan Asian one. Like, no matter how much the Pan-Asian one, like promoted, like, um, just because of like, like the things I described so far, not just because of like the RSOs themselves and what the RSOs specifically bring.
Clara Lee: So I guess like what I'm getting a lot from this is that you really do identify more with the Korean side and as like, emphasizing like the Korean part of Korean American, if that's, if that's the label you choose to use, and I'm kind of curious what it was like growing up for you and like, I guess, did your parents like speak Korean at home? Cause you moved to, when did you move to the us?
Rose: When I was six.
Clara Lee: When you were six. Right, so, you've lived in the us for like 15 years now. And it's kind of, I guess sort of surprising given that, that you would still hold such strong ties to Korea. So I'm just kinda curious about that kind of environment, especially because you grew up, as you said, like in a mostly white neighborhood and it didn't sound like there are too many other Korean families around.
Rose: So we definitely spoke Korean at home and like I would also attend the Korean school every week, which was a place Near my church. I was kind of forced to do it by my mom, but also she also taught there. So, but it was the same ride anyway, if I wanted to take it. But, um, I think, I think it definitely helped that, like I grew up like when I was six in Korea and a lot of my childhood memories, like. From like, when I was really young, was based in Korea, with a lot of my relatives still living in Korea as well. But I think another thing would be probably like, I just had more interest in Korean media because like... I think it's two things, Korean media and probably Korean history. I think first with media, like I have more interest in Korean media just cause like I liked it better, like Korean dramas or movies or like music. Cause like, I don't know. I feel like with movies and dramas, I could be able to feel and like empathize and relate as well as like understand or, um, Even like, evaluate like the acting of the actors much more better than like those in like English movies. Like, for example, I feel like if I were to see like two actors on the screen, I'd be able to tell like, um, in a Korean drama, like if someone's acting really well, but like, oh my gosh, like he's portraying his emotions really well. Like, like the delivery of his lines. Like his, like his, like the face that he's like holding during the scene, things like that. I feel like I can like see those and tell like, oh my gosh, this guy's really good at acting compared to, um..
Like most American shows, I feel like I can't really tell when they're really good. I can tell obviously when they're bad, like if they're super bad, but I can't tell when they're really good. And I feel like, Hm. I, this might be completely false. I can't remember it all, but I feel like a lot of the times I've like gotten really emotional or cried, it was probably when watching Korean media. But I can't tell if that's by court, like just happen, like just the coincidence, because I do watch more Korean dramas and movies than American ones. And most of American ones I watched aren't really that like emotional, but then it is interesting that I don't watch much emotional American movies, cause I've watched a lot of Korean emotional ones.
So there's that. And I think also with music. I don't know, but like, obviously there's a huge difference between Korean music and American music. And like, even besides like K-pop versus American pop, just in like just American or Korean music, I think is different. Even with like Korean ballads and things like that. Because I feel like for me, Personally-- and like, I think American music is good. There's a lot of American songs that I love, and I love musicals and I think American musicals are much better than Korean ones. Even just by like performance, like acting or like songwriting or the lyrics and things like that. I think it's much better, but I feel like with just like music that you just listen to, I could relate to Korean ones better. And like, I think it's the same thing here where with the Korean, like with the not pop, but just like a ballad singer, like I can tell if they're really good at singing, like here's the singer, like I listened to that one and I can tell like, oh my gosh, they're conveying their emotions really well. Like, they're so good at singing. Like they're like expressing it so well, things like that. But when I hear you, like, American songs. I can't really tell. Yeah. Like, definitely not with the American pop nowadays either, but I feel like maybe it's cause I haven't been able to find it but I can't find any American like ballads that would be like emotionally equivalent to like Korean ballads, which I felt like to be really deep and like made me feel it like just listening to it and things like that. And also like, there's also the fact with lyrics too. I feel like just in general, like Korean lyrics tend to be more expressive and have more depth with it. I think like a lot of it comes because of, um, like obviously the U.S. is really diverse. So because of that, like, people have really different backgrounds and like background knowledge and things like that, but in Korea, because like, it's, it was pretty, very homogenous until now. And it's still kind of homogenous.
Like there's like this collective knowledge, but like this collective culture or like things that everyone knows. That like people can really like pull into or like, um, dig into, that, like allows us to like really just feel it together, I think. Or like, feel similar things. Obviously it wouldn't be everyone. But I think that's the thing also like with the expression of the lyrics where like, it just tends to be just more expressive. I feel like, I feel like there's more words in Korean language that express diverse different meanings than in the U S language. Like for example, um, like I feel like Korean what the Korean language does really well good job of is like really having like different words, like different nuances.
Clara Lee: Can you give you an example?
Rose: I feel like, for example, like, I can't think of a specific example, but, um, when I was like for like trying to translate something, to tell someone, like, it'd be difficult to find the exact word for it. Because there isn't a word for it. Like I could say just like, like this would be a really crude example, but like for just like a basic, like the idea of it would be like, there would be a word that expresses like, being sad and like disappointed and kind of dejected all together, just in one word. But then I would have to just translate it to being them being either dejected or depressed, that kind of difference. So like, I think like, because there's like those kinds of nuance words, um, as well as like some hanja, like, which is basically words like phrases from before Korean language was created, so like, from some, from China. But like those that also have meanings that people like collectively know. So that could also be like used.. Like, for example, like even with BTS's album, hwayangyeonhwa, like that's hanja phrase, that just means like the most beautiful moment in life. But like, because like people all, like most people know that and like people can expect to be know that, they can be used that like that easily in an album without having like a super long, like really long album name, like it would be as in translated to the U S. So like, things like that, I think really helps with like expression as well.
It's like, I think that's really why I prefer Korean media usually. So there's that. Also, like that also caused me to watch more of it. So like, I would feel more connected to like that kind of culture and things like that. Um, but I think the second part of it is like the Korean history, which is probably one of the big reasons, not the only, but the big reasons why I feel so much like pride and like nationalism so much. Because, um, like just historically, like there's been so many events or like just progress that Korea has seen that just like is honestly astonishing. And I think the big thing, um, and it's kinda hard to explain why I'm so like, why I feel so connected to it, but just like thinking about like, I feel like it really makes me emotional to even think about it. Like not in a sad way, but like, like a really kind of like just emotion way, where, um.. Like just thinking of like, cause I think a big thing about Korean history is that it all of it, like most of it, was because of the common people, taking action, rather than like the government doing a good job or something. Like, obviously they didn't mess up things too much because Korea's doing pretty well right now. But like the Korea is the only country that didn't colonize, and actually was colonized by other country, but still like one of the biggest like, well living countries today. And I think that's amazing. And like, like thinking of like all of the things that like the common people had to do, cause like there's so many figures in Korea that are like, Um, heralded as heroes because like they were able to get things done when like those empowered, like left, uh, left like the regular people. For example, like a lot during like the Japanese occupation, like most of the people who were in power or had money were because they decide to ditch their country and go to Japan, or like suck it up to the Japanese people. But like during this time, the people who like actually managed to like save Korea and like, make sure it still existed were the common people, like people who we don't even know the people who, we don't even know the names of, but like died, sacrificed their life for their country. And I think like,
And I think like really thinking of like, people like that is what makes me really proud to be Korean, because like, I'm part of the legacy of that they like gave up their life to save.
And like, I w I think like for me, like one of my biggest goals in life is to be able to, like leave an impact or also a legacy that could continue that.
Yeah, but I think that's probably like one of the biggest reasons why I feel so proud of the country. Um, like it's not because anyone in power or like any president or any dictator or anyone like that. Like anyone who's rich or things like that, because I feel like Korea has a pretty long like-- this is all personal opinion, but like, they all have like pretty bad luck regarding like, those people like that, but like really just the people who didn't even have anything but just like, like an ideal and a belief, and just was willing to give up anything they had, including their own life for it. And I think I just find that really inspiring and like also really thankful because of the reason like, Like the reason I'm here. Like, even if though I'm in the U S, like the reason I was able to come to the us, and like, have this life is because of their efforts. Yeah. And I honestly get so mad when I see like, people, like nowadays, who are trying to undermine that, which is one of the reasons why I feel, like so nationalistic. Because there's still people, like whether that be from China or Japan, or even in Korea, like who are Koreans, that try to undermine that. Which just gets me really riled up.
But I think that's probably why I connect to being Korean so much. And I think it also has to do with the fact that like, like my, both of my mom and dad are also like this, where like my mom was like, oh, Like my, I remember like my, my mom was just reading me poems once. Cause I found her little, like she had this little poem book, like tiny, like on purpose. And she was reading it and I remember like her like just suddenly really crying while reading it because like the, one of the writers who wrote the poems was an activist. And like, like the thing is they suffered like for it and things like that. Yeah. And I like, like I said, I really do love Korean media and like the Korean leaders and the reason, like, those are still able to exist today too is because of like the history that there's been until now. As well as just in general, like, I feel like there's just so many things like, like some of the prominent figures that there are. Or like, um, I'm sure, like, there's obviously amazing people around the world, but like, just like the prominent figures or like the prominent inventions or things like that, that was able to take place. Um, just really get to me.
Clara Lee: I think that's really admirable and I think that's like really cool. I mean, that's something that I wish that I had had-- was a stronger sense of connection to my heritage as well, but that's really cool. Um, I guess sort of circling back, I'm also kind of wondering, so you mentioned you went to Korean school and, um, I guess to me that implies that there was at least some sort of Korean community, um, as well in where you live, is that a correct assumption to make?
Rose: So it was like 30 minutes from our house. So that's one of the reasons why I said like the community I lived in was basically all white because we had to go out that far for it. But basically we went to this Korean church, and like, my parents are very involved in the church and know people, but I feel like my family in general, except for my sister, which she's always the outlier, which is kind of interesting, but I'm like, we all are very like introverts who don't care. So like, my parents would also not really interact or like hang out as much with other families. Like even though they would sometimes, and like still be like friends on, not that deep of friends, but like friends, but like, we wouldn't really be that active socially with them either. Plus they lived far away. Plus for me, I hated most of the people there, like my age, like a lot of them were stuck up. But I would say like, they weren't really my community either like, for me. So, yeah, I guess that's why I said I D I still don't have a community.
Clara Lee: Okay. Yeah, no, that, that totally makes sense.
Rose: It was sad cause there was this one girl I was really close with, but then she moved. But she also lived far away.
Clara Lee: So I guess it sounds more like, I guess your kind of quote, unquote, Korean community, um, was more of really your family and not kind of other people or other Korean people.
Rose: Yeah, like even like, um, one, like the only relative that lived in Minnesota with us was my great aunt and great uncle. But the thing is my great uncle was white. And like, he was the sweetest man I've ever met, but still like, because of that like, their lifestyle would be more white, too. So I would say like the really, like, obviously my great-aunt was still like Korean to the core, but still, like, I would say the really like Korean, Korean community was like my family.
Clara Lee: Yeah. That makes sense. Um, well I think that's all the questions I really had. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about or, um, something that I didn't ask about that you wanted to get to?
Rose: Um, Hmm. I think it's interesting nowadays that like Korean culture is being so popular, like in the U S. But I think also. Like it's really ironic. Cause like I like distinctly remember like during like my first or second or even third grade. Uh, in elementary school where, when we said we were from Korea, people would be like, oh, where's that like, is that in China? Or is that Japan? And we'd have to always explain it by saying it's between China and Japan. And like, I remember there was this one girl, like I think the reason I thought I really didn't face any like microaggression or racism is because I really just like passed it off as them being stupid. Like, for example, um, like when I was young, this one girl she asked, um, we were just talk-- we just have, we would talk like we were talking in the lunchroom and we were all sitting at a lunchroom table. And then this girl said, um, like we were talking about how many guys are sitting there, and I counted, and there were two of them. And I said, there's two guys sitting here. And then the girl said, no, there's three guys. And I was like, who's the third one? And then she said, since I have black hair, I'm also a guy, but the thing is she had brown hair, which I was like-- so that's one of the reasons why I didn't really think of it as racism, but like just her being stupid cause i'm like, she has brown hair, like, which is also pretty dark.
Um, but like, um, like it used to be like that, but now, like everyone knows like you'd have to be an idiot to know, not know Korea or like BTS or Parasite, or like there's so many figures that are like really prominent even in the west now. Even though I feel like west shouldn't be the standard for like success. Cause I feel like it's slowly becoming that which is kind of annoying. Um, but like there's so many like K beauty, like K-pop, everything is becoming so much relevant in the U S. As well as just Korean food, the fact that I can just go to Target or cup food and just like buy something made by Korean company, like is still kind of wild to me as well as like how better, like how much more, and it's still, it's not stopping, it's just increasing and still growing. It's like, I also find that wild since like, we're just in the process of it rather than like at the end of it.
I think it's just really ironic for me, especially since I've been through all of like the, like, before and aft-- like before and during. I guess, I wouldn't say after. I guess this also really makes me proud. Cause like, like other countries like Japan or like Vietnam or Thailand, or like other Asian countries or Africa, like any other country like that aren't like European, like white majority countries. Um, I don't think I've ever seen like its spread like growth influence as this much. And the fact that like, even though it's such a tiny country, like Korea is like with like an enormous population with little land space and like, pretty bad, like amenities and like support for people who are just going to go into college and just study to become like an office worker. Like the fact that like Korea is able to produce like directors, like Bong Joon-ho, or like BTS or other K-pop groups or like volleyball player, like Kim Yeon-koung, who's like number one worldwide, even though like the country didn't-- like the government didn't do anything to like help or promote her as much. Even like, um, Kim Yuna, uh, like the, I figure skater. Like the fact that like these individuals who become like top worldwide are able to come from such a small country who, like again, the government or those in power don't help as much. I think it's kind of like, again, it just shows to, like makes me proud of like the Korean people themselves, not just like the government. Or like the country, like on the organization basis. So, yeah.
Clara Lee: Well, thank you so much for this interview.
Sanjay
Clara Lee: Okay. Cool. Um, so just to start off with, let's just get some basic information. Please tell me your name, your year, um, your ethnicity, and then where you're from. Um, so I guess like nationality, hometown, whatever, where you're from means to you.
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Okay. Uh, so I am Sanjay Chakrabarty. I am a third year math major and I am. I guess Indian American, uh, and I am from Cookeville, Tennessee. Yeah.
Clara Lee: Okay, great. Do you have any siblings?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Um, I do have one older sister. Yeah. And she lives in Washington DC. She's a lawyer.
Clara Lee: Did your sister also go to U Chicago or...?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Actually, yeah, she came to UChicago. She's eight years older than I am. She was class of 2015
Clara Lee: Great. Um, and then a little bit about your parents. If you could talk about who your parents are where they're from. Like if they're immigrants or if they were born in the U S as well, um, how did you end up in Tennessee?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: So, yeah. Uh, so my parents are both doctors. They were both born in India. Uh, they met in, uh, 1992. They had an arranged marriage in 1992. Uh, they moved to the U S in 1993. My dad was getting a, uh, a medical job in New York in 93. Uh, they worked, my dad worked in New York for three years. And then he moved to Philadelphia with my family. Uh, my sister was born in 1993 as well, like a month before, uh, my parents moved to the us. And so in '96 they moved to Philadelphia, my family, uh, and then in '97 they moved to Tennessee because my dad found like a full opening at the hospital, uh, in Tennessee. And then I was born in 2001. Uh, and that my dad started his own medical practice in 2002. So we kind of like laid down heavier roots in Cookeville and have been there ever since.
Clara Lee: Would you say that there's a, a sizeable Asian or Indian, or I guess nonwhite population in Cookeville?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Um, I guess like statistically? No, not really. Cookeville is like 90% white because it's rural Tennessee. But, um, I grew up like involved in whatever Indian community there was in Cookeville. Like there are lots of other Indian families. Cookeville has a big hospital, so there were a lot of Indian doctors, who my family was well-acquainted with. So I was friends with a lot of the like Indian kids. Like not to say, I didn't have, uh, plenty of other friends as well, but, um, a lot of the Indian kids in the community I knew and was friends with and then all. The Indian community was pretty tight knit, I guess, in Cookeville. However, smaller ones.
Clara Lee: I guess since you mentioned, like there's a pretty tight knit Indian community, are there any, um, Like ethnic grocery stores or any like restaurants or was it just sort of a people gathering at houses or sort of thing?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Um, it was mainly people gathering in houses or like having events at parks and stuff. That's where the community got together and did things. Uh, but I think when I was in middle school, one Indian restaurant opened up. And then when I was in high school, another Indian restaurant, so there are two Indian restaurants, which is not bad considering my town has like a thousand people. But the nearest Indian grocery store was in Nashville, which is a metropolitan area. So about an hour away. Uh, and yeah, I guess it was mainly gathering events. Like the community was well-organized. I remember, I guess in middle school, whenever whatsApp became a big thing in like 20 12, 20 13, uh, all the Indian, all the Indian families got in, in this WhatsApp group. Uh, and I think even now, like my mom has this WhatsApp group called Cookeville Queens where her and all the other Indian moms, I guess, or like Indian women in Cookeville, uh, just like chat and like they host monthly events, uh, and like do stuff with the community. And so I think that's cool.
Clara Lee: Outside of the WhatsApp group, is there, like you said, it was very organized. Um, I guess, could you talk more about that? Like, are there flyers or how does word get around about the different events and what kind of events are put on?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Um, so like, events are mainly like for the Indian community. Uh, there are, uh, Diwali the festival of lights. Um, there is so Cookeville is a college town. There's a Tennessee tech university, uh, in Cookeville and the university partnered with like the Indian students association of the university hosts a Diwali night. Uh, like I guess similarly to UChicago does. Uh, so the Indian community in Cookeville was active in that and they put on shows and, uh, I was drafted to dance at Diwali night in middle school. They had a bunch of me and a bunch of other Indian, middle schoolers doing some dance to some Indian song, uh, which, which was uh, fun looking back on it. But in the moment I was like, this is the worst thing I've ever done. Um, but, uh, yeah, there's not, I guess there's not really like a formal. Indian.
Okay. I'm speaking, I'm saying this, knowing that the Indian community, even in Cookeville is subdivided. There's like a Gujarati Indian community. And then there's like everybody else, Indian community. So the Gujarati Indian community hosts events and like stick to their own. And then everybody else like sticks to their own. I don't know much about the Gujarati uh, Indian community. But, uh, like the other Indian community is not like officially organized. It's mainly just people like telling each other just like, "Hey, come over. I'm having a lot of Indian people over." And the only big event I can remember is Diwali show at university.
Clara Lee: That's really cool. I'm kind of curious about this, uh, divide. Is it based on, I mean, I don't know much about. Kind of subcultures within, within the sub-continent of India itself. Um, so I'm curious on like, why the Gujarati?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Gujarati, yeah.
Clara Lee: Um, have sort of formed their own sub community within the larger Indian community in Cookeville? If you have any thoughts?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Um, I, I don't know. I know. Honestly, it's kinda funny. I'm pretty sure there's like tension between the two communities. Like they don't like each other. So whenever I hear some of my mom's friends, uh, like other Indian moms in the community talk about them. They're like using like racial slurs towards Gujarati people. I was like, you're Indian too, what is this. It's like, not real racial slurs, but it has like same vibe as a racial slur. Uh it's uh, It's rough, but I have no idea why it's split. I know, like it could almost be like, like a political ideological split because. Like ironically like Indian people in rural Tennessee, uh, is like pretty evenly split between like Republican and Democrat, I guess. Um, so it might be like Gujaratis are more like, yes, they're pulling lower taxes. So we are going to. Uh, support them and then like, others are like, oh, we are immigrants. So we are going to support the democratic party and stuff like that. Um, but I don't, I don't know. I never really questioned why there were two, two groups. It's just like there are, and we don't interact with that group.
Clara Lee: That's really interesting. Um, then sort of pivoting to U Chicago that makes me think about your experiences, um, as, as Indian American on U Chicago's campus, and I guess if you see those same kind of divides or if you even feel like if, is there a community, um, on campus?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Um, yeah. There is a large Indian community on campus. The SASA group, south Asian, south, south Asian students association. Uh, is a large community, vibrant. They host lots of events. Um, but I guess coming from rural Tennessee, uh, you know, rural Tennessee, not a great place to be a minority. Uh, I, I came to UChicago and I'm like, I grew up with like a chip on my shoulder about me being Indian. Uh, I had a lot of people, uh, like not intended, some people intending to, but not intending to like, be mean to me based on my ethnicity or whatever. I had someone in high school be like, oh yeah, you would be attractive if you were white, and stuff like that. Uh, throughout high school and into college. I was like, oh yes, like I need to like whitewash myself almost. Um, so coming to U Chicago obviously has helped me stop some of that. Um, because it's a much more inclusive community. Um, and even though, like I had the Indian community at uh, in Cookeville, that was like very self-contained, there wasn't much interaction between them and everyone else.
So, uh, in at UChicago like, there's much more interaction between like. SASA's a much more inclusive group than whatever Indian community I was part of in Cookeville. It's but even now, I guess I still feel very unsure in my identity. As in like, as in like, I it's only taken me until pretty recently almost to realize like, Hey, like you can act as white as you want, you're not going to be white in the eyes of people who just look at you.
Um, more recently, I've been trying to be more involved in SASA events cause like I am Indian. Um, and I guess nothing's going to change that.
Clara Lee: Yeah, no, that definitely makes sense. Um, I guess that, that sort of brings me to questions about. Um, because I think at first, when I asked you to introduce yourself and your ethnicity, um, you said Indian American, but I think you, you sort of seemed to hesitate a little bit, um, on saying that. So I'm just kind of like wondering about that. And sort of more broadly, I'm wondering, would you describe yourself as, like more Indian, more American? Do you like the hyphen Indian-American?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Um, I guess in the Indian community, there's this term ABCD, uh, which is American born confused desi. Uh, so that's what my family in India calls me just like, because I feel culturally American, like I grew up like consuming American media, hanging around with American classmates. And like looking from my point of view, it's no different than any other kid growing up in. I mean, like ignoring the Indian community part, but like, like through school is like, it's no different than any other white kid. Like all my classmates were white, uh, and everything, but, so I feel like culturally American. I like speak, I don't have an Indian accent. I speak, I act like a frat brother most of the time. Um, so I always think it's like, for the longest time I was like, I'm American. Like I like fundamentally am American. America is like a melting pot of all the cultures. I can be like American and like on some level that's true. Like I am American.
But that's kind of, I guess that's kind of ignoring the fact that like my parents came from India here. And like raised me here, yes. But my parents are Indian. My parents would call themselves Indian. And most people born in India who moved to the us, I feel would call themselves Indians, living in the U.S. So it's kind of a disconnect between like two Indians raising an American, even though they're related by blood. Uh, so I've been more recently. I've been thinking like, I, like, I am Indian American. I was raised in, you know, every night I went home, I had rice and naan every, like every night, I, or like every month on the full moon, we did puja. And it's like, that's stuff like no, like traditional "American" would do. Uh, so I, I guess Indian American is the most apt title. Cause like, normally, at UChicago, if I'm not at a SASA event, I feel American. Like I can hang out with whoever and like I speak, I act. I guess it's not really a difference in speaking and acting, but like, I feel American, but like I'm also Indian. So I do, I do like the term Indian American.
Clara Lee: Yeah. That makes sense. Um, and I guess sort of thinking more broadly about like the Asian and Asian-American identity, I was wondering, what Asian American means to you? Like who do you think of when I use that term? Um, and is being Asian, like something that you consider part of your identity, like does being Indian also equate being Asian?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Yeah. No, I was thinking of, was like, when you first posted the poll on Poll Party I was like, should I say yes? I was like, like, okay, like geographically sure. India's in Asia. But also like, I feel like there's a common conception. Like Asian American is a separate demographic group than Indian American. Or Asian American considers as like non Indian, like east of India, Asians, I guess. Um, uh, so anyone in like China, Korea, Japan, Southeast Asia, those places. Uh, but like, so it's weird. Like, and people, I feel like people fit Indian-Americans into those. Groups, whenever it benefits them to either be in the group or not be in the group. Uh, so if they say it's like, oh, Asian Americans do this, if Indian Americans also do that then yeah, Asian Americans do this. Uh, but if Indian Americans don't, then people say Asian Americans do this, and someone asked about Indian Americans, like, oh yeah. They're not Asian American. So it's like, kind of, I feel like at least it's like a weird relationship between Indian Americans and Asian Americans. So that might just be my growing up in Tennessee, where there was a distinct Asian American community and a distinct Indian American community and the Asian American community was not encompassing the Indian American community. But that's my two cents.
Clara Lee: Yeah. Well, so now I'm kind of curious about the, since you mentioned the Asian American community, um, in Cookeville. So who were the, the ethnic groups that made up members of that community if you know?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Uh, I don't particularly. I guess like, um, Tennessee tech university, uh, is, you know, like not a bad university and it's a primarily like engineering focused university. So there are a lot of people who come there to be like engineers and they have a huge engineering program. So they've had the Indian community is made primarily of people from India who like come to like international students. Uh, and then like, I think the Asian American community in Cookeville is based around, um, like I guess non-Indian Asian people who go to Tennessee tech university, uh, and. I guess like the Indian American community is always like, oh yeah, the Chinese are doing this. And they're like, I guess that's definitely reductive because there are definitely more than just Chinese people studying at uh, Tennessee Tech university. Uh, but I don't actually know the demographic makeup of anything. Uh, and it doesn't help that like, we didn't interact because like Indians also have this chip on their shoulder about Chinese people. Uh, and like I've dealt with my parents, uh, coming to the U.S. and being like, oh yeah, these white people are mean, but also we hate Chinese people, Muslims. Hmm, interesting.
Clara Lee: Oh, okay.
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Yeah.
Clara Lee: Uh, I'm sort of curious where that, where that tension um, with Chinese people comes from. I, I think I can sort of understand perhaps with Muslims, um, with the whole like history of India and the kind of separation of Muslim communities.
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Um, I am unsure. Like my, uh, my grandfather watches Indian equivalence of like, OAN constantly. Uh, so he is like a far right Hindu nationalist, and my mom was always like, what did, what are you on about like, why do you... My mom is very relaxed about like religious things, but also she's like, yeah. And then I'm like, oh yeah, this bad thing happened to me. And my mom was like, were they Chinese? I was like, why did you ask that? Like, why are you like this? Um, and I don't honestly know where it comes from. My mom, I guess it's like, oh yeah, my college days, like all the Chinese people I met for duplicitous and stuff. I'm like, but like, there are a lot of things to say about that. Like one. Were they actually all duplicitous or did you meet one bad person and then started hating every Chinese person? Or did you meet a group of Chinese people who weren't good people and then immediately assume that no Chinese person is a good person and like it's, I'm unsure where it comes from more generally, but it feels like a lot of Indian people, I guess, have had experiences with that. And it doesn't help with like Indian geopolitically are like rivals quote unquote with China. They've fought in the past in the 1970s or something, when my parents, and I guess all these people, would have been like children. So like they're seeing on the news, like India fighting China. And like, India's a very propaganda heavy country. So I wouldn't be surprised if that had something to do with it, but yeah.
I guess that's why there's a disconnect for me between like being Asian American and like encompassing myself in a group that like people I was raised by don't like, uh, so.
Clara Lee: Yeah, so I guess going back to, to being on campus. Um, there is actually a, a pan Asian resource group on campus that I also very recently found out about. Um, and I'm kind of curious, like, If that would be something that like, this is not a plug for this group. Um, I'm just curious, do you think that like, those kinds of groups are needed? Is that something that like you yourself would ever be interested in, like going to events hosted by a pan Asian, um, resource group? If there are such events.
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Yeah, I guess, I guess like partially. Yeah, it's like, I would like to be a part of this, like a larger community, I guess, like, not to say that like SASA is a large community because it is a very large community. But like, it would be interesting to interact with people, uh, who are grouped in by some people in the same category I am in. Uh, and, um, Also, I just need to like get out of the house more. So I would, I would go to, I would go to things, so, yeah.
Clara Lee: So who do you think is, is doing the grouping of, uh, of like Indians into the larger kind of like Asian, Asian American.
Sanjay Chakrabarty: I don't know. I honestly have no idea. I think it could definitely just be all in my head. And I've made up this whole thing about the ah yes. I'm Indian, we're different than Asians. But like, um, I don't know. That's just what I've thought.
Clara Lee: Yeah, no, that makes sense. I think there's definitely, um, one of the things that we've been talking about in this introduction to Asian American history class is um, is how do people who don't fit the kind of like east Asian mold or identity like fit into our definition of Asian America. And I think the, the Indian and Indian American identity is definitely a big part of that because sometimes some people think of it as being included. Some people don't think of it as being included. Um, so I guess kind of implicit also in that question about like the pan Asian resource group is like, Do you feel there's like a, a large pan Asian kind of community on campus?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: I mean, I am unsure, I guess. I wouldn't know. I guess I'm just hearing about the pan Asian resource group now, I guess. Um, but yeah, no, I guess. I guess it's not the Pan-Asian resource group is not as, you know, cause you hear a lot about like certain like minority student associations, like south Asian student associations, like OLAS and ACSA and stuff like that. Like all these other groups, minority groups for students.
But I don't, I don't know. I've I've, since I've never heard of the pan Asian resource group. It's not really the same, like to say, it's like, oh, it's all. And even in the Pan-Asian resource group, it's called the pan Asian resource group, as opposed to like the Asian students association or whatever. So it's not, it's like trying to whether to make explicit, including Indians for people who don't include Indian people, Indian students, or.
Clara Lee: Yeah, that makes sense. I also did not know about this resource group until I was talking to, um, my instructor. According to their description, they, uh, serve all interested Asian and Asian-American identifying individuals from diverse ethnic backgrounds, including those from east Asia, south Asia, Southeast Asia, central Asia, west Asia slash middle east, Oceania and the Pacific islands. Um, and including those who are multiracial. So, um, I think there's definitely a sense of at least the, the group wants to propagate this idea that Asia does encompass all of these different backgrounds, but I, I was very curious about your perception of it because I also hadn't heard of it before, and I think there is a lot of focus on the individual, uh, sort of ethnic student organizations on campus.
Um, actually there is, I guess, just circling back to SASA so like, within SASA if you could like talk more about that, um, and like how, how that space has sort of shaped your kind of, I guess, identity or perception of like Indian-ness, whatever Indian-ness means.
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Um, um, I guess like, yeah, I haven't been involved with SASA much. Uh, I've been trying to more, but it's still like, it's still weird for me to consider myself as like, oh, I am Indian and I'm going to go to this south Asian students, like I'm a south Asian student, I'm going to go to the school association for me. But like this, like SASA is inclusive. They're like, oh, anyone who wants to learn about south Asian culture, history, food is welcome or whatever. Um, the body, I guess like the body of the club is primarily South Asian students as you'd expect, but there are definitely like other, um, other students included, um, So, yeah. I mean, I'm not as involved in SASA as I would like to be, but like going there and feeling like it is,
I don't know. It's still, it's still weird to think of it as a community for people like me, because I feel like raised different, like not race different, but like, I feel. Culturally different than like someone who like fully embraces Indian culture and their heritage. Um, but I, it, it is nice to have a group of people who like I can share. It's like, oh yeah, no, I was raised like this. My parents are Indian. I did this. And other people have like, I'm sure other people in the club that have similar experiences to me, um, having like immigrant parents and stuff. So, um, it is something that I think is. Is would be a good place for me to like meet people with similar experiences, but still have to get over myself to go.
Clara Lee: Kind of, uh, a couple of last questions just to start wrapping things up. Um, so I guess I'm just wondering, within south Asia. Um, I guess I just want to get a sense of what you understand as being within south Asia. Um, cause some people have different understanding of what a label encompasses.
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Um, I guess south Asia would be the five countries, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bhutan, Bangladesh. Um, I think. That would be it. I think the yeah generally like post British Raj colonies, I guess, are what I would consider south Asia.
Clara Lee: Do you feel like there's ever any like tensions or divides within SASA between those different groups?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: No. I feel like SASA does a very good job of making the community open to all south Asian students like they host uh, Hindu religious events, Muslim religious events. Um, they're trying, like, I, I think it, it feels like from the limited experience I've had with them, it feels like a very accepting group, whether I would be, um, uh, a Hindu student or a Muslim student where, and that's, I guess, where the main divide would come in in south Asia, is the religious divide, because most other things there are similar, like the language is very similar, the food is very, very similar. Uh, culture is similar, just like, the religion is different and SASA does a, I feel it does a good job of bridging the religious gap and making an inclusive community for all South Asian students.
Clara Lee: Do you think that there is, because I know that there's also a separate, um, Muslim students association, so I'm wondering like, um, I guess kind of about the overlap and are there, uh, like, would you say there's a pretty balanced proportion of Hindu and Muslim? If, I mean, I guess if even people like subscribe to being Hindu or Muslim, you don't necessarily have to be to join SASA.
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Yeah. Um, I mean like, like religious identity isn't like, I guess the primary focus I felt in SASA. Like, oh, you're a south Asian student, whether you're whatever. Um, and I, I feel like while there would be overlap between like the Muslim students association and SASA. Muslim students association, are for people that identify as like Oh, I'm Muslim, I have these beliefs, and SASA's more for like people who originate from south Asia. I like, yeah. So like Muslim Students Association obviously would include people from many other places in south Asia. Um, so I feel like it's, it's more of like, what part of your identity are you using to attach yourself to a group?
Clara Lee: Yeah, I guess I was just like, kind of curious on how, um, or if like there are, if you do see a lot of like, like religiously people, within SASA. I'm just wondering like, if Muslim people would feel. Like south Asian Muslim people would like want to join SASA
Sanjay Chakrabarty: um, I, I don't, I don't know, I guess, cause in SASA, like nobody talks about like oh, if you're Hindu go over to this side or if you're Muslim go to this side and nobody talks about like their religious beliefs. Like I can walk into a room full of brown people and not know whether they're Hindu or Muslim and I don't think anyone's particularly worried about it, whether anybody's Hindu or Muslim.
Clara Lee: I think that's wonderful. Um, I was just curious, because I was really intrigued by the tension that you had brought up in your, um, Indian community at home. Um, so I was wondering if, how that, um, or if that same sort of thing was playing out in UChicago. But it it's really cool that there is this very like inclusive space that SASA provides. And it sounds like they're doing a great job with that.
Clara Lee: Um, okay. I think that's all the questions I had and, um I just wanted to end with, if there's anything that you wanted to mention or talk about that I didn't ask or that we didn't get to that you wanted to kind of throw in now?
Sanjay Chakrabarty: Um, I don't think so. I think I've said everything. Most of my thoughts about being Indian, so…
Clara Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, great. Uh, well thank you so much for the interview.