Interviewer: Emma Calkins
“For my oral history project, I ended up doing three interviews – my mom, my younger brother, and my aunt. I had originally planned to interview my grandma and my other aunt as well, but they both declined to interview; my aunt because she felt she didn’t have any information for me on my Grandpa’s experience in the war, and my grandma because she felt any information she had, I wouldn’t want. My grandma told my mom (as my mom described the interaction to me) in a bitter tone about how my grandpa would always talk about the woman he’d lived with in Korea, and my grandma would reply: “Well, if you’re thinking about her – if you’re talking about her that much, you should probably just go and live with her.” My grandma said to my mom: “I don’t think Emma would wanna hear that.” So, I didn’t get the chance to hear from everyone I wanted to, but I did ask my mom and the aunt I did talk to about what things Grandma has shared with them. They also described to me what other family members have told them – stories that Grandpa had shared with those family members at some point. I ended up gathering stories that were told to my uncle David and cousin Harry in addition to my grandma. It felt like patching together a history I never knew existed in my family – a history that was heavy with a lot of silence and a lot of things unsaid and unknown.
It seemed to me that each person that I talked to/about had one particular story or association that stayed in their memory most clearly when it came to Grandpa’s experience in the war. For my mom, that was the story my grandpa told her about coming home on a boat and throwing his military jacket into the ocean – an action that she thinks reflects overwhelming relief in that moment – which he said he later regretted. For my aunt, that was the vague memory of a story my grandpa told her about body parts flying everywhere, in response to her question if he ever shot anyone. For my uncle (at least according to my aunt), that was the story my grandpa told him about taking the jeep into town even though he wasn’t supposed to. For my grandma, it was simply the knowledge of his ex-girlfriend in Korea.
The woman he’d lived with in Korea figured heavily into the interview with my mom and the interview with my aunt. They described how he was trying to find her (through Harry) while at the end of his life in the nursing home. My aunt also told me of a picture that existed of her sitting naked on his lap, which my grandma recounted to my aunt bitterly, pointing to what appeared to be a source of (ongoing?) conflict in their marriage. My aunt thought he would have married her rather than my grandma if he could have. It left me wondering if they’d ever had any children together, what the reason/s were for their breaking up, and if she’s still alive. I wonder what she’d say about my grandpa, or what she knows about him that none of us ever will. It is a little surreal to have these small pieces of what I’m sure is a complex story. It is even more surreal to me to consider what I’ve learned – and my still unanswered questions that swirl in my mind – in conjunction with what we learned in class about the trauma, power relations, and blurred line between love and transaction that often characterized relationships between American soldiers and Korean women. What was it really that my grandpa and this woman shared?
These wonderings, which I doubt will ever be resolved, really personalize for me the forgottenness of the Korean War. To me, this is both powerful and heartbreaking. It feels powerful because never before have I felt such a deep connection to history. My family has been in America for so many generations that I don’t even know much about how we got here and when. All I know is that my mom’s side of the family came from Poland, and my father’s side from Ireland. Besides a vague notion of their immigration, I never could picture my family figuring into historical accounts that I learned about. Maybe this has less to do with a lack of my family’s role in historical events and more to do with the fact that it’s just not talked about (as my interviews suggest). What I discovered in these interviews made me take notice, in a concrete way, of the fact that I and my family do not stand outside history. I guess this should have been obvious, and I guess I always knew it on some level. But to have it brought to the surface in a way it’s never been for me before, left me with a newfound appreciation for and curiosity about who I am and where I come from.
But I also felt sad upon learning about my grandpa and the forgotten war he fought/participated in (it’s not clear if he actually ever engaged in combat). Being someone who is not at all enchanted by the military and what it stands for, my sadness doesn’t come from the same place as my mom’s, who feels all veterans should be honored. I don’t want to blame the young men who embraced the narrative that war propaganda in the U.S. crafted – a narrative that claimed fighting for one’s country is noble and necessary and masculine. But I also find it hard to honor people who functioned as killing machines abroad for the sake of protecting American dominance. My grandpa’s story does not fit into these musings neatly. It’s complex and it’s overwhelming. I do think he’d agree with me that the Korean War was a tragedy. The fact that it happened and the fact that he witnessed it/contributed to its happening is something that is not easy for me. I’m betting it wasn’t easy for him either. Perhaps it’s where all this silence comes in.
One thing that Niu said in class that has really stuck with me was during our discussion on the Japanese WWII internment camps. In talking about citizen renunciation as a strategy, Niu reminded us that larger politics of right and wrong and good and bad are not usually at the forefront of individuals’ minds. What matters to people – real people – is their individual interests, like safety and family. I think this lens helps me make sense of my grandpa’s story in some ways. Yes, he was actively a part of a war that was unjustified and cruel. And he also was an individual who signed up to go because he wanted to get away from his family life. My aunt told me a bit about this after I stopped recording our interview – apparently, his home life wasn’t great as his brother teased him unmercifully and his dad died when he was young. He was a person reacting to personal circumstances and got tangled in an international web of US efforts to dominate. I don’t know if this makes his role in things “less bad.” It does help me make sense of it, at least.
As a side/final note, I want to mention that the documents my mom and aunt found revealed a lot more than I, or my mom or aunt, ever knew about my grandpa in the Korean War. This was an exciting discovery, because we can now see what dates he served, for how long he served each role, what US camps he trained at, and when he was discharged. We also noticed that he signed up under the last name “Novak”, which according to my mom, was a name my family used for simplicity’s sake. Their real last name was Nowaczyk, but because it’s hard to spell and say, they would sometimes go by Novak. According to my grandma (as relayed to me by my aunt), he signed up for the war under Novak the first time he served, and the second time, he was drafted under Nowaczyk. The documents don’t seem to reflect this so I think it’s important to include here.”
Interview 1:
Interviewer: Emma Calkins
Interviewee: Amy Calkins
11/26/2021
Segment 1: Introduction to Amy
E: Okay, so to start, you have to give me an introduction of who you are, and, like, a summary of your life events.
A: (silence for a few seconds). Okay…Who am I…
E: Introduce yourself for the audio. (laughter).
A: Okay, so. My name is Amy. Calkins. I am a mom. A divorced mom of three children. Um, (pause). I grew up in Chicago, I’ve lived all my life in Chicago.
E: Where in Chicago?
A: I originally lived on the Southwest side, I now live on the Northwest side. I have three siblings. Um, I have my masters degree in social work and I’m back in school to be a school social worker.
E: Alright. Thank you. So, um. I feel like they probably want timeline of major events too, if you could like, add that real quick.
A: Timeline, okay… um… (pause)
E: When were you born?
A: (Laughter). I was born on May 10th. Um, let’s see. (pause).
E: Like, talk about – no, don’t pause it – talk about, like, you know, you went to school… and, like, when did you go to college, and, like, a major summary of like the years, like, when you graduated, and what you- your first job, like just a general summary, a little timeline…
A: Okay, okay, um. So, I graduated high school in 1985 and I went to college after that. I got my bachelor’s degree in applied psychology, I had jobs throughout those years. I worked at McDonald’s, I’ve worked at retail clothing, I worked in a bank… Those are my part time jobs I had through college. I, um, and I worked a year full time in a diagnostic shelter for children before I went back part time for my master’s degree in social work, which took 3 years part time. And then I, um, and then I became a psychiatric social worker until I got married in 1997. And then I had my children and became a stay-at-home mom.
E: Alright! Thank you.
A: You’re welcome.
E: (laughter). Yeah, yeah, good summary, got the whole timeline. Okay. So, I’ll actually segment it, so this way I can track it better.
Segment 2: What you know about Korea, and Grandpa’s experience there?
E: Question one: What do you know about the Korean War?
A: (Pauses). Okay, so, the Korean War. (pause). I don’t know much about the Korean War. (light laugh). I know that my dad was in it. I know that, um, (pause). It didn’t get much publicity. Nobody really talked about it. (pauses). Even in school. I don’t remember much about it.
E: So, in your family, was it ever talked about?
A: No. I don’t even know who told me that my dad was in it. I just always seemed to know that he was. But no, nobody ever talked about it.
E: Did your siblings ever give you any impression that, like, they knew a bit more about it, since they were older?
A: (pauses). No. No. Nobody… nobody said anything, really. I don’t even know how I know.
E: And how would you compare that to, maybe, other major wars or events that were talked about in your family? Or was it just that it wasn’t talked about – none of it was really talked about?
A: You know, we didn’t ever really talk about military or wars in the- in the family. You know, even Vietnam – there was not much that we talked about, I just knew that when it was time for my brother to sign up for the selective service, that was, like a stressful day in the house. (pause). Cause, you know, when you turn 18 you have to go sign up.
E: I didn’t know that.
A: At the post office. That’s how it was.
E: That’s not a thing anymore?
A: Well, it is a thing, that – at the post office, there’s still a little desk there, on the side. Off to the side.
E: Is Martin gonna have to?
A: Yes.
E: Woah.
A: Um, on the FAFSA – did I tell you? On the FAFSA it said, um, because he’s male, one of the options, which was different from your FAFSA form was ‘do you want him to be automatically enrolled in selective service?’ So.
E: Did you say no?
A: I said no.
E: I know you did. (laughter).
A: But he has to, so there’s really no choice in the matter.
E: (Laughter). Okay, okay, so um – it wasn’t really talked about in general. Can you share anything Grandpa might have shared with you about his time in the war or the war in general?
A: Okay, so, there was one time I asked him about it. And that’s when Martin, my son, was probably not even one. And I was on the phone with my dad and I asked him about it and he – and I didn’t write it down. Although I should have, I remember thinking, I should write this down. But, I didn’t. And – let’s see, the things he told me… was that – he was very like, um, dismissive about it. You know, uh, he didn’t give it much, it didn’t seem like he gave the conversation much value, he just said things like, “oh I – I helped with like, the food preparation. That type of thing. Um. And then he talked about when he came home on the ship, that he remembers taking off his coat from the service – it was a nice long coat – and just, like, throwing it off the side of the ship on the way home cause he was just so happy to be done with being in the service. Oh! I also – he also said that he, um, tried to sign up before he was of legal age, but they wouldn’t take him. I think he tried to lie about his age but they wouldn’t take him.
E: Did he say why he wanted to?
A: I think he was just a bit of a, uh, rebel. Just, kind of, felt like it.
E: Like, a rebel from his family life?
A: Yeah-
E: Just wanted to get away?
A: Yeah, yeah you know, just like a teenager, who said, you know I’m just gonna go try to join. Something like that.
E: Do you know where he was in Korea?
A: No. No I do not. No.
E: And did he ever tell you any other, like details about the years he was there?
A: No.
E: How about how he got there? If he took a ship back, did he tell you about how he got there?
A: No, I’m sorry, he didn’t.
E: (light laughter): It’s okay! That’s the point. Um..
A: He did talk about one time being on the plane and it being a really hard landing and um, and that’s why he doesn’t like to – didn’t like to fly. You know, he told me that. (Pauses). Um. And that’s – I think that’s about all I know.
E: Did you ever talk about his time in the war with your siblings and see if they had more information on it?
A: (Pauses). No. No, I – if I did, I don’t remember. I, probably I did. Probably came up at his funeral, something like that. Because they had the, the flag – because he was in the service. So they had the flag on his casket, so I’m sure it kinda came up – at that time. But no, no that I can remember.
E: And (pauses). You said about that one story, with the jacket, that he told you he regretted it, right?
A: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, he said he wished he didn’t do that. He was sorry he did that.
E: Did he mention why?
A: No… I- I – maybe he did and I just don’t remember? I wish I did.
E: But – he, you said, you know, he was dismissive of the conversation, so maybe he just didn’t.
A: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think he just wasn’t the type of person who talked about himself.
E: Hmmm. Okay I can probably end it here, so I have segments.
Segment 3: What Grandma knows about Grandpa’s time in Korea
E: Okay, so you say Grandpa didn’t talk much about the war, but you did ask Grandma if he ever shared any more with her. Can you talk about that a little?
A: Yeah, she said there were a couple of pictures that he showed her, um, when they first were married. So, when, like I was saying, when I asked my mom about it she said that he showed her some pictures from when he was in the service. But she doesn’t know what happened to them since. But that was early on. Um, also that he had a girlfriend in Korea that he was living with, that he had met there. And… so I suggested that she talk to you about it, and tell you her side of the story, what she knew… and she said, ‘oh no. I don’t think Emma would wanna hear that. Because I would tell him, well, if you’re thinking about her – if you’re talking about her that much, you should probably just go and live with her.’ (laughter.) So, she did not have a very, um, positive experience with that information.
E: I see. And so, did she mention what was in the pictures he showed her? Was it of that girlfriend, or..?
A: No, no. It was like, him, with his uniform on… something like that.
E: And did she – or you, or Grandma, or anybody, have any information about like, how long they dated, or anything else about her?
A: No, but I know that like, my – I didn’t even know about this woman until, like, you know, until like, I was an adult, like, beyond adulthood. I think it was my sister that mentioned it, that I had no idea of, that he would bring it up once in awhile. Like, he would think about her and wonder if he should somehow, maybe go try to find her again, after my parents’ divorce or something. I don’t, I mean I don’t really remember the details, but, I know my cousin, um, he was in Korea on a business trip and he told me this story how he had called my dad to tell him he was in Korea, and my dad, um, asked him if he was near this spot by a river and my cousin had told him he was even though he really wasn’t because he just wanted to make my dad feel good, or – no! – something about, there was something about a house. He was like, oh do you see – he was a certain spot and he said, do you see the house, or whatever, a structure across the river, and then that’s when he said he did see it, but he- he said it really wasn’t there anymore, but he didn’t want to hurt my dad’s feelings and so he said ‘yes, yes, I do see it.’ And my dad said something about, oh, well, that’s like where the woman lived or something. So… yeah, that’s about the most detailed story I have about it. So, I don’t know, I wonder what he told, um…”
(Interview interrupted by Martin).
Segment 4: What Harry knew about Grandpa’s time in Korea
A: So I wonder what my dad told my cousin about his experiences in Vietnam that…
E: Korea?
A: Yeah, sorry, yeah – in Korea. That my cousin Harry would share this story with me. So he must’ve known some other details or information for Harry to know where the spot was in Korea and to actually call my dad to talk about it.
E: Were they close?
A: Oh, Harry said, to me, that, you know, because my parents are divorced, he said to me once: ‘you know I – I’m not really sure what it was like growing up with your dad, but for me he was, um, a was a really important person in my life. And he – he really influenced me in a positive way’ and he meant a lot to my cousin. Like, he was-
E: I didn’t know that.
A: Yeah, yeah. It was like, before – I think that was before my dad got married and had kids, that type of thing. So he was in his nephew’s life in a very positive way and meant a lot to him.
E: Ohh, so Harry’s on your dad’s side.
A: Yeah.
E: I didn’t know that, so, that makes sense.
A: Yeah, so yeah, that’s my dad’s nephew.
E: Yeah, that makes me wonder if he would have known a lot more about it then, especially if he was close to him, closer to after the war ended –
A: Younger, mhmm.
E: Maybe he would’ve said more about it. That’s really interesting. I wonder if Harry’s wife would know any stories.
A: Maybe. She might. She might.
E: That’s so interesting.
A: Yeah, I don’t know.
E: Did he have other nephews? That he was – or nieces? That he was close to? That you might’ve heard – from them – anything?
A: (long pause). Well, those would be my cousins, and we never really – I mean if they were close, it was before I came along, because we really lost contact with, with that side of the family, aside from Harry. So, I don’t really know.
E: It’s really interesting though.
A: Yeah, it is.
E: I didn’t realize they were close like that.
A: Yeah, yeah, he talked very favorably of my dad.
E: Was that nice to hear?
A: (Long pause). It was…it was nice to hear. It was unexpected. It was nice to hear. And… it was a little… off-putting at the same time.
E: Cause he wasn’t as close to you guys?
A: Yeah, yeah, cause I obviously didn’t experience him the way my cousin did.
E: That makes sense. (Pause). So… did you, like have any other memories, even if it’s very vague or broadly attached to the Korean War – like, anything your family – like, do you remember, for example, learning about it in school, and then like, talking about it with your family – or like, any sort of conversations or engagement around the Korean War – that you wanna add?
A: (pause). I… no, it was not really given any attention that I – that I can remember at school or at home. It was… like it didn’t… like… even in school, it didn’t seem to be given the same value as other wars, it was just kind of glossed over in discussions. And that’s interesting because knowing that my dad was in it, you almost feel…. Like what he did wasn’t as important as people who had served in other wars. Like, if you were in Vietnam, you know that was serious and that got a lot of attention, but, oh, you know, oh, your dad was in Korea? Oh, okay. You know, it just didn’t seem like it had much value.
E: Yeah. Do you have any memories of like, telling people about it and their reactions?
A: I do have memories of it coming up, ‘oh was your dad-?’ ‘yeah, he was in Korea.’ I don’t remember the reactions but I remember the feeling, feeling like, okay, well, that doesn’t really mean much when I said it, or you know, or talking about it. Like there was nothing more to say than it was just a fact.
E: Yeah, it didn’t have like the same weight.
A: No, no, now if you were in Vietnam, you’d be like “Oh.”
E: There’s a lot of reactions around that.
A: Mhmm.
E: And was that something you experienced, like, in high school? College? All through your life?
A: (Pause). Well probably my school years. It was almost, it was like I almost couldn’t say it proudly. You know, like, there was no pride associated with it.
E: As opposed to, like, the general idea of other veterans?
A: Right, in the other wars. Mhmm.
E: That makes a lot of sense. I feel like I had the same, like, back when I was in elementary school, and people’d be like, oh yeah, like you know they’d talk about honoring military men and people like, being very proud of their family members who served in wars, and like, I didn’t even know Grandpa had served in the Korean War until I was older and I asked if we had any veterans in the family and you were like, oh yeah, Grandpa, and I was like, what? I didn’t even know. And so it was like the same thing, where I was like, if I – I would always forget which war it was.
(Interview interrupted by Audrey).
Segment 5: Segment 4 cont’d
E: So as we were saying, um, we were talking about the Korean War being something like you didn’t, your peers didn’t know about so you couldn’t be proud of your dad’s service. And I was saying how, I had a similar experience where I wasn’t sure, like, if it was something to even be proud of because people didn’t even know what I was referencing, and um, I think maybe also had something to do with like, the fact that he didn’t actually fight – like there was some legacy around like, oh, my dad or my person was like, fighting, and so they had some sort of, you know…
A: Mhmm. Something to –
E: You know what I mean?
A: Oh, yeah, right- ‘did they see action?’
E: Right, yeah. Which is actually kind of twisted if you think about it.
A: It is. And you know, every- anybody who serves should be proud, right? That’s how I feel about it, now. And then. But, more so now.
E: Right. So, can you say more about what he did in the kitchen?
A: Oh, so, my mom also mentioned to me that he was in charge of keeping the- the water tanks- like, from what I- the way I picture it is just like it’s a huge outdoor tank or something, but he was in charge of keeping the water clean. I don’t know if that was like through chemicals or what, but that was part of his responsibility.
E: And do you know anything about, like – I know you don’t know the actual location in Korea, but was it like a military base camp or what was it? Do you know exactly?
A: Well, he – from – he used to joke that he would peel potatoes. But I don’t know if that was like actually a thing or that was just a joke amongst people who worked in the kitchen. So, you know, he said, so he would say that. But it was for a large group of soldiers, or you know, the service men, that he would do this for, so. I don’t know to what degree though.
E: Yeah. Still something though. I feel like there’s – you say he never talked about it but the potato peeling joke, that’s still something. (laughter). Yeah… Let me make sure I didn’t miss any questions. OH yeah, can you just mention – we just talked about it – the war memorabilia, like you never came across any of it?
A: No. No, I mean, I remember my dad’s belongings being like, on the um, you know, like his wallet and change and things like that, just like being on the windowsill but that was, like – but nothing that had to do with his, um, service. At all. Nothing.
E: I know dog tags was, like, a thing, in like World War 2 – was that a thing in all wars?
A: I think- yeah- I think so, yeah, I think it still is.
E: Did you ever see them?
A: No. No, no, you know what, I wouldn’t be surprised if he just got rid of everything because if he was so happy to no longer be in the military that maybe he was, just, you know, it didn’t matter at that moment. Like, I just don’t want it anymore. Get rid of it. It wasn’t – for whatever reason, his experience – didn’t wanna think about it anymore.
E: Yeah. Was that, like, a tangible thing for you to notice? Like, did you feel like there was an absence, like, about your knowledge of his life? That he never talked about it? Was it like, perceptible for you?
A: No. No, growing up – no. He just didn’t talk about himself. (pause). And I didn’t really stop to think about it. I guess it was just kind of the culture in my home, where you just didn’t talk about yourself that much. You past, you know. You just got – the day to day was what was important.
E: Hmm. (pause). Can’t imagine. I always talk about myself. (laughter).
A: Well it is very important to talk about yourself. I- I, yes, I wish it would have been different.
E: Mm. You wish you would have known more about the war?
A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The context, you know, his life with it, just you know, historically – other ways too.
E: Yeah. I feel like there’s probably so much there.
A: Yeah.
E: I mean, we don’t even know how many years he was there. Just kind of crazy. There’s gotta be documents, somewhere. You didn’t come across any, ever?
A: No. (Pause). Maybe I’ll do some looking, through some of the papers I have, but I’m pretty sure – either I don’t have them or they don’t – either they don’t exist.
E: Do you know if he wrote letters? Home?
A: Uh, I wouldn’t know. No, I don’t – never heard of anything like that.
E: That would be so cool if he did. If we had those somewhere.
A: Yeah. Maybe he did. Yeah, but then my grandmother would’ve kept them, and all those – you know, I’m the one who cleaned out the house, so if they were there, I would’ve seen them. And I cleaned out a lot of things but I never saw anything like that.
(Interview interrupted by Audrey).
Segment 6: Paperwork of Grandpa’s time in the Korean War
A: Now that I think about it, I think I remember coming across some honorably discharged papers. From my dad.
E: Oh! Did you know the year?
A: No. I just have a vague memory of like, seeing it, and wondering what it was – and wondering if it was a good thing or not. You know? Cause you see the word, like ‘discharge.” Like, was he in trouble? (laughter).
E: I mean, it says honorable, so…
A: (laughing) Right. Right, right. But yeah. So I vaguely have that memory. I can’t remember when it was or where it was but I remember some of that. I’ll have to – you know, I’ll look into it. And ask if anybody’s got those papers.
E: Yeah, that’s so cool. Dude, now that your memory’s going – is there any other papers you remember?
A: Related to him and being in Korea? No. I don’t think so. I don’t think so.
E: That’s so interesting.
A: Yeah.
E: So if you’re honorably discharged, that means he left before the war ended, right?
A: Well, when you sign up, you sign up for a certain number of years. And then when your time is up, you’re free to go.
E: I don’t know the distinction, but is there another distinction for being discharged early but honorably, like, I’m wondering if maybe he left early somehow?
A: Right, right. I don’t know – I don’t know enough about that to know.
E: Well that’s okay – he didn’t tell you!
A: If we had talked about it, we would know.
E: Yeah! Yeah. Alright.
A: Alright, okay I think that’s it, thank you.
Interview 2:
Interviewer: Emma Calkins
Interviewee: Martin Calkins
11/26/2021
E: Okay, so start by summarizing who you are and your main life events up to this point.
M: What? (laughter). Uhh..
E: Give your name.
M: Martin. Calkins. I am 17 years old. I (long pause). Um.
E: When were you born?
M: Oh, I was born in 2004. (pause). On January. 9th.
E: Okay. (pause). And… you’ve done school, right? When did you graduate?
M: Oh, yeah, yeah, I haven’t graduated yet. I’m a senior in high school.
E: Okay.
M: At Lane Tech College Prep.
E: Okay.
M: Yeah.
E: And where did you go to school before that?
M: I was homeschooled, actually, yeah.
E: Okay, from what grades?
M: Uh, you know I don’t even remember anymore. It was like, since 4th grade maybe? 5th grade?
E: Alright. So, I’m gonna ask you what you know about the Korean War. So first, share what you know about the Korean War.
M: Uh. I-I assume, you know, by the name, that it’s in Korea. You know, North and South Korea, they’re not very friendly with each other, I know. North Korea’s like, kinda mean to its people. Yeah, they don’t have food and stuff. And then, South Korea has food, I think.
E: Okay, but do you know anything about the war?
M: No. (laughter).
E: Did you ever learn about it in school?
M: No, actually, I don’t think so. I learned about the Vietnam War. A little. I don’t think that’s the same thing, is it?
E: No.
M: Okay.
E: Okay. And so, what do you know about – do your friends ever talk about it? Like, you have no other interactions-
M: I-you know, for awhile I didn’t even know it was a war.
E: Do you remember when you learned?
M: Uh… no. No, I always, you know, in my head, it was always like the same thing as the Vietnam War. And then, and then, like, I brought it up to someone at some point, and they’re like, oh no, that’s not the same thing. Or something.
E: You don’t remember when that was?
M: No, no, that was pretty recent though.
E: If you had to guess, like within the last how many months?
M: Probably like, a year, I’d say.
E: And, um, your friends don’t ever talk about it, it’s never come up in your history classes?
M: No. That’s not – no.
E: Have you taken a world history class?
M: Yeah. Taken AP World History, I think.
E: Currently, or-
M: I took it.
E: And it never came up?
M: (pause). Uhh, it-it was- no, it never came up. I don’t think we finished it, cause the pandemic. More than halfway through the year. Cause we were going chronologically. And you know, so we-
E: Do you know where you left off?
M: Uh, we got, we got past World War 2. And I think that – that’s where it ended.
E: That’s definitely an unusual circumstance, then.
M: Yeah.
E: Do you know if was in the curriculum? Did you ever – did you ever talk about-
M: No, I – I know the Vietnam War was.
E: Okay.
M: I didn’t know- no, not the Korean War. I don’t know.
E: Okay. So then, you know Grandpa was in the Korean War.
M: I-I do now. I thought it was Vietnam for awhile, maybe Korean, since I realized they were two different things.
E: So when did this occur to you that he was in the Korean War?
M: Uhh (long pause). You know, probably today.
E: Like, just now, me telling you?
M: Uhh. (pause). You know, yeah. Yeah, I guess so.
E: Actually? You never once, like, maybe remember Mom saying it to you?
M: I remember it but I always thought it was like, the Vietnam War.
E: And so what do you know about his time there?
M: I know he never like, served any military, like, he never serve- like he never fought or anything. He was a cook. I think.
E: Yeah, that’s true.
M: Yeah. That’s pretty much it.
E: Alright. Anything else you know about the Korean War? Or your friends know? Or you’ve heard the family talk about? Or Grandpa’s time in the war?
M: Nope.
E: Alright. Anything to add?
M: That’s it?
E: That it’s.
M: Wow. I’m – I’m sad. That is sad.
E: (laughing). Yeah, I just wanted to see what you knew.
M: Cool, I knew nothing (laughter).
Interview 3:
Interviewer: Emma Calkins
Interviewee: Janet Schultz
12/05/21
Emma Calkins 0:00
Oh, there we go. Okay, so before I ask you any of the questions. I just- like, my professors want me to have, like a brief summary of each interviewee's life. So like, if you could just summarize like the basic events of your life so far?
Janet Schultz 0:19
Um, let's see, like from the beginning of time?
Emma Calkins 0:26
Yeah, like, you know, when, when you were born when you graduated high school, like where you grew up, like just a basic summary of you.
Janet Schultz 0:34
Okay, I was born in 1957. And I was born in Chicago. I lived basically my whole life in Chicago. I graduated from high school in 1957. And oh, no, sorry, can you re-record it? Wait, re-record it, wait, shut that off, we'll start from the beginning. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, stop. (Recording paused. Recording restarted). Okay, should I start with my name?
Emma Calkins 1:05
Yeah, sure.
Janet Schultz 1:05
Sure. Okay. My name is currently Janet Schultz. I was born in 1957. I grew up in Chicago in the Brighton Park area. I went to high school there, and I graduated in 1975. Then I attended the University of Illinois, which at the time was called circle campus. And I graduated there in 1978. With a BA in education. I started teaching ,I taught for two years sixth grade, and I got married in 1979. And then I 1981, I had my first son who was born and then I had two more boys after that. I was a stay at home mom. I went back to teaching in the year 2000. And I'm currently teaching second grade. It's been 20 years.
Emma Calkins 1:56
That's perfect. Perfect summary. Thank you. Okay. Okay, so now I'm gonna ask you-
Janet Schultz 2:01
A whole life!
Emma Calkins 2:01
(laughter) A whole life in like three sentences. That's impressive. Um, okay, so just for before I start asking you about Grandpa, what do you know about the Korean War?
Janet Schultz 2:15
Oh, ummm, just that - We did go to Washington, DC, and we saw the monument there. And not too much. I learned from my mom, I if she had told me that it was just a conflict that wasn't actually declared war at that time. But, yeah.
Emma Calkins 2:35
All right. Um, and then, so now, can you tell me what you know about grandpa's experience in Korea?
Janet Schultz 2:42
Um, my father was in the Korean War. He had enlisted twice. Well, once - the first time he volunteered, the second time he was drafted. When I talked to him, he said, Because I only asked him one time about it. And he said that he really didn't see any conflict. He actually, his job was to purify the water. But he did mention one time, which I'm not sure if my memory is that clear, but something about body parts flying. And that's like the only thing that I can recall.
Emma Calkins 3:11
Oh, my god, really?
Janet Schultz 3:13
Yeah.
Emma Calkins 3:13
Wow. Did he - do you remember anything about like, when that was, like, or-or what it had to do with his like, he was in charge of the water purification? Was it-
Janet Schultz 3:24
Right, yeah. And then I know he had a girlfriend too, there.
Emma Calkins 3:28
Yeah. Mom mentioned that too.
Janet Schultz 3:30
Yeah. Um, no, it's like, it's just the one time that I had actually asked him like, he never like volunteered, you know, to talk about it or anything. And he was very, like, it was a very brief, you know, conversation. Like he didn't really go into it. I think it was like, I must have been, like, maybe in junior high or something when I'd asked him that.
Emma Calkins 3:51
So do you remember what you asked him that he told you about the body parts? Or did that- ?
Janet Schultz 3:57
Uh, no. I guess I had asked him if he ever shot anybody. And he never really answered me. He- that like, that was his answer.
Emma Calkins 4:06
Oh, wow.
Janet Schultz 4:07
Yeah. I don't know why - something must've came up in school and I came home and asked him about it, but.
Emma Calkins 4:13
Woah. Yeah, no, mom said that grandma didn't mention anything about that. And mom didn't know anything about that either. So I have another clue now. But wow, that's kind of scary like because I saw in the document you sent me, it outlines how many months he was doing different things. Like it said three months something about a soldier and then like 10 months, something with an engineer and 11 months water treatment. So I wanted to know if like that three months that he was a soldier, maybe there was something? I don't know.
Janet Schultz 4:42
There was never a timeline. Like he never, you know, there's never dates discussed or anything like that.
Emma Calkins 4:48
Wow. So do you remember any other stories about the girlfriend maybe?
Janet Schultz 4:54
Um, no, but I know my brother had mentioned that he would take the Jeep even though he wasn't like, authorized to take it and go into town.
Emma Calkins 5:04
Really? Like, to see her, or just- that was a separate thing?
Janet Schultz 5:07
I'm sure that was part of it. So I mean, that was his reason for going.
Emma Calkins 5:13
And so then did he live in a more rural area? You think?
Janet Schultz 5:17
Um, I don't know. I guess I always imagine him in a tent. I mean, he was like, out there. I never like I don't think it was like a building that he stayed at. Like, I never thought that. But I'd never asked them. So I don't know.
Emma Calkins 5:34
Did you? You mentioned that you asked him that one time. Like, because maybe it came up in school. Did you ever ask- Do you remember asking him about it other times?
Janet Schultz 5:42
No. No. Just the one time.
Emma Calkins 5:45
Yeah. Yeah, Mom said the one time she remembered asking him about it. Like she was with- she remembers Martin was like a baby. But that was the one time she asked him too.
Janet Schultz 5:57
I know there was one time he was in the basement. And there was a picture of him with, uh, I imagine it was his buddy, because they were dressed in a uniform. But I don't think it was like, I don't think it could have been in Korea because it was like next to a car, but he was in uniform.
Emma Calkins 6:10
Oh, okay.
Janet Schultz 6:11
That was like the only other thing.
Emma Calkins 6:13
Did you see any other pictures ever at any point?
Janet Schultz 6:16
No.
Emma Calkins 6:18
Do you know where they went? The one that you did see?
Janet Schultz 6:21
Those pictures? No, no, because when we went through his things they weren't there. I don't know what happened to them. Unless your mom has them, I don't know.
Emma Calkins 6:30
No, the only thing she had is that one document.
Janet Schultz 6:34
Yeah, that was the one thing I had. I mean, the one thing that I saw. And he had kept it down in the basement like it wasn't in the house. It was like in the basement.
Emma Calkins 6:43
Yeah. Did you ever come across anything else that from the war like any other objects, maybe not pictures but..?
Janet Schultz 6:51
Mm, no.
Emma Calkins 6:54
Did he ever mention any of those things?
Janet Schultz 6:57
Like objects?
Emma Calkins 6:58
Yeah. Like, I don't know, like dog tags or like, uniform or something.
Janet Schultz 7:02
No. No, he didn't. I never saw his dog tags or any part of his uniform.
Emma Calkins 7:09
Oh, that's so interesting. I wonder where it all went?
Janet Schultz 7:14
I don't know. I don't know. He must - He must have gotten rid of it. I don't think anybody else would have thrown it out.
Emma Calkins 7:21
Right, right. Yeah, Mom said Grandma mentioned a few pictures too, um, but I don't know if she had them or, or I don't think she did. But-
Janet Schultz 7:32
I know this was like at our first house when we lived, like before your mom was even born. Like we had- it was, it was like three flat and we lived on the bottom floor and the basement wasn't even like, finished- the basement wasn't even like a basement like it was a dirt floor and everything. And there was just like a little room down there. And that's where he had kept the pictures, like the army picture was down in that room.
Emma Calkins 7:53
Oh my gosh. I didn't know you guys lived in a different place before mom was born.
Janet Schultz 7:57
Yeah. We moved. Yeah, we moved when I was in third grade. I was going into third grade.
Emma Calkins 8:03
Oh, wow. So did he have- Was it like in an album or something? Or was it just kind of like, tucked somewhere?
Janet Schultz 8:09
Just tucked somewhere like in an envelope. Yeah, there was like a little shelf down there.Or a little table or something he had put it on. It's not like we went down there to play ever. You know, it wasn't a basement to play in.
Emma Calkins 8:23
So very separate.
Janet Schultz 8:25
Yeah. Yeah.
Emma Calkins 8:26
That's so interesting. So do you have any other stories from maybe other family members like David or I don't know, any- ?
Janet Schultz 8:34
Just, well, just from David when he would borrow the jeep and go into town. I think that's about all he had told me.
Emma Calkins 8:41
Did grandma ever tell you anything about him in Korea?
Janet Schultz 8:46
Umm... you're gonna delete this right?
Emma Calkins 8:50
Well, I just I'm gonna submit it for my project. But then yeah.
Janet Schultz 8:54
Okay, then I can't tell you the one part.
Emma Calkins 8:56
Well, wait, wait, it's anonymous. So like, like, I won't- like, I'll summarize your life events but I won't say who you are and like I'll submit it to my- for my school, but they're like not gonna attach your name to it.
Janet Schultz 9:08
Okay, you just stop recording. I'll say it and then you decide if you want to put it on there.
Emma Calkins 9:13
Okay, but can I have it on the recording so that I have it? If I do want to put it on there?
Janet Schultz 9:17
You're not gonna want to put it on there.
Emma Calkins 9:21
Are you sure?
Janet Schultz 9:22
I'm 100% Sure.
Emma Calkins 9:23
All right. All right. I'll stop the recording. (Recording stopped. Aunt Janet told me about a picture Grandma told her about that Grandpa had of him with his girlfriend from Korea. She was sitting naked in his lap in the picture).
(Recording resumed). Go ahead.
Janet Schultz 9:28
Okay, that he did have a girlfriend in Korea. And then it was so many years later, like he was already in a nursing home. And my cousin was going to Korea and he had asked my cousin to look for this woman. Like he wanted to have contact with her. But he- the way he described it, it was like oh, yeah, you know, you go down this street or you go here and turn this way. But I mean, Korea's all different. Like there was no way he could follow what you know, my dad had remembered because it has been built up. So, yeah, so that never happened.
Emma Calkins 9:59
Well that's still really interesting that he remembered even in the nursing home like, yeah, yeah, cause I know - like I remember I was really little when he was in the nursing home but I remember he thought Martin was Jeremy at that time. Like he still remembered her that's really interesting.
Janet Schultz 10:14
His long term memory was good. Like he never lost the long term memory just short term.
Emma Calkins 10:18
I guess that explains why he thought Martin was Jeremy because long term.
Janet Schultz 10:22
Yeah, yeah.
Emma Calkins 10:23
Wow. Do you - do you know anything else about her?
Janet Schultz 10:27
The woman? No, no, I think he had wanted to go back and marry her. I don't know why he- like I guess maybe they couldn't at that time? Like marry people from there? I don't know. I think if you would have been able to, he would have, then I wouldn't be here today.
Emma Calkins 10:43
That's very true. So, glad you're here.
Janet Schultz 10:46
And you wouldn't be here either.
Emma Calkins 10:48
Oh, my God. That's so weird.
Janet Schultz 10:50
Yeah. I think they must have had rules or something like, you know, for the for, you know, people in the service like they couldn't marry them or whatever.
Emma Calkins 11:01
Do you think it had to do with like, he just didn't want to move there? Or she didn't want to move here?
Janet Schultz 11:07
I don't think so. I don't know. You have to look up. Look it up and see.
Emma Calkins 11:11
Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's so- I wish I could learn more about her. I wonder if she's still alive.
Janet Schultz 11:16
I don't know. Like he'd - You know, I don't have a name. But he must have given it to my cousin. But he's no longer living either. So.
Emma Calkins 11:22
Harry, right?
Janet Schultz 11:24
Yeah, yeah.
Emma Calkins 11:26
Wow.
Janet Schultz 11:27
Yeah, no, I've never seen pictures of her though.
Emma Calkins 11:30
Wow.
Janet Schultz 11:31
But Grandma has.
Emma Calkins 11:32
Yeah, oh, my gosh, that's so interesting. Okay, let's see if I have other questions. Um, oh, did you have anything to add about, just kind of like, how the Korean War was talked about in your family? Or if you guys talked about it at all?
Janet Schultz 11:47
Never. Never.
Emma Calkins 11:51
That's consistent with what mom said too.
Janet Schultz 11:54
Yeah.
Emma Calkins 11:55
Did you feel like there was any sort of, i-it's hard for me to word this. Any sort of like feeling that you shouldn't talk about it? Or was it more that it just didn't come up?
Janet Schultz 12:08
I don't think he wanted to talk about it. Because when I did ask him about it, he he never like gave any real details about it. You know? And, um, you know, he never like explained like, what he did when he was filtering the water, how he put things together. He never talked about any of that. So I'd just say, I would just say like, he didn't want to talk about it, really.
Emma Calkins 12:30
Yeah. And then when you, when it came up in like school, at some point, and then you wanted to ask questions and stuff, like do you remember, like talking with your classmates or your peers at any point about him being in the war? Like, is that something that ever came up on your end?
Janet Schultz 12:44
No, no.
Emma Calkins 12:48
Huh. Do you remember learning when he served in the war? Like when you first realized he had?
Janet Schultz 12:58
No, but I must have known he did because I'd asked him about it. So I don't know. I must have somehow known that.
Emma Calkins 13:05
Right. I wonder how it came up. Because if he didn't really offer information, I wonder where - ?
Janet Schultz 13:10
Right. Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't too into history. So it's not like I woulda said, oh, yeah, this is the date he must have been in that war. Like it didn't come up that way. So I don't know.
Emma Calkins 13:22
Yeah, that's so interesting. I'm kind of surprised, like, considering how much he didn't want to talk about it, I'm surprised that he kind of he let you guys know that he was in it. If he didn't really want to talk about it.
Janet Schultz 13:34
Yeah, I don't know if you asked him a question, it's not like he lied about it. You know, I mean? So he just like answered the question to the minimum. You know it's like when kids ask about Santa Claus or the tooth fairy, mom just gives the minimum so yeah, it's kind of like that.
Emma Calkins 13:51
(Laughter). That makes sense. Um, let's see. Oh, and my last question is if you know anything about the documents you sent.
Janet Schultz 14:02
Oh, do I know anything about it? No, I mean, I- that was after he passed when we went through his stuff.
Emma Calkins 14:08
Do you remember where you found them?
Janet Schultz 14:10
They were all in a file cabinet. He kept em all in a file cabinet with all of his- the bills he paid, everything- he's very organized. Very organized.
Emma Calkins 14:21
Can't relate. I try, but.
Janet Schultz 14:25
Cause you had to do it being in the service. I don't know, but.
Emma Calkins 14:29
Okay, I feel like there was a lot more information than you made it sound like you had, like I have some, some new stories now. So yeah, did you have anything else that we didn't get to that you want to add about it- any other like, even if it's a really vague memory?
Janet Schultz 14:45
Um, no, I think by being in the service like he- when they come out of it, like being the father, he's still like, kept that kind of strict kind of thing. Like when I say something, you better listen kind of thing.
Emma Calkins 15:00
That's interesting. Mom didn't mention that.
Janet Schultz 15:02
Yeah, not that- not in a bad way. But you know when he said something like you knew he meant it like you better do it kind of thing.
Emma Calkins 15:11
I see.
Janet Schultz 15:12
And I never like questioned it. So I always did it, like, I don't know what would have happened if I didn't. Just just the way he said it like you knew you better do it.
Emma Calkins 15:22
It's so interesting that he could have- like, carry that with him, you know?
Janet Schultz 15:25
Yeah, I think it affects people. Yeah. Like that.
Emma Calkins 15:30
Yeah. How could it not right? Yeah.
Janet Schultz 15:33
Yeah. He always said, well, I don't know, that you'd have to learn to be- nowadays I'll say a Native American- before you could become a chief. Like, he used to say that a lot.
Emma Calkins 15:45
I never heard that phrase before.
Janet Schultz 15:47
Well, he said, You have to be an Indian before you could become a chief. Like you have to learn the things before you could like be a leader or whatever. Yeah. He'd say that a lot.
Emma Calkins 15:55
Like the idea of working your way up through the ranks, kind of. Yeah. I see how that could relate to military experience for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Anything else?
Janet Schultz 16:10
No, that's all I have. I wish- I wish I would've asked more at the time, but you know, I didn't. (inaudible)... regret later on, it's like when you're a kid, you really don't care. But when you're older you do and then you don't have it, the opportunity to ask anymore.
Emma Calkins 16:27
Yeah, yeah. Mom said the same thing. She's like, I wish I asked more. And then I thought well, you know, if he didn't offer a lot of information, maybe he preferred that you didn't ask, so?
Janet Schultz 16:38
Yeah, probably. Cause like I said he never like, he just you know, like one sentence answer kind of things. He didn't really go into it.
Emma Calkins 16:48
Well, still, I learned a lot more than I ever knew before this project so.
Janet Schultz 16:52
Well good for you. See? You're still young still.
Emma Calkins 16:55
Yeah, like getting all of it. See, I might not have been able to ask him but I've asked you guys and so now we've got it all.
Janet Schultz 17:01
No, not all of it, but you've got some of it.
Emma Calkins 17:03
As much as we can for now, so.
Janet Schultz 17:05
Right. Right. Yeah.
Emma Calkins 17:07
Cool. Okay, I'm gonna pause the recording or stop it.
After I stopped recording, Aunt Janet mentioned that according to Grandma, Grandpa served twice – first he volunteered, and the second time he was drafted. According to her, he volunteered under the name Novak and was drafted under the name Nowaczyk. (Novak is the name, I’ve been told by my mom, that my family used instead of their real name, Nowaczyk, for the sake of ease).
Also to note - Aunt Janet afterwards said that she doesn’t mind being identified which is why I included her name, despite her sentiments about anonymity during the interview.